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SC: You use a hook. A hook is basically saying “what is the one thing that everybody is going to want to learn about or hear about that’s related to my products”.  When I use that in the past I’ve experienced 5 to 10 x growth.

I think in an environment like today because everybody is so focused on the Coronavirus and the crisis and soon we’ll be moving into how do we get out of it?

What is life going to be after Corona? Right? So you have plenty of different hooks that you’re going to be able to use over the next year.

AO: Boom.

Welcome to The One Grow Show brought to you by growth marketing conference. 

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I’m Adam O’Donnell.

Here we go.

AO: Are you thinking outside of the funnel in this post-Corona World? SC Moatti is the founder of Products That Count and Mighty Capital, shares growth strategies that are going to help you to make a big impact.

“The first is the “hook” strategy. So it’s “what one thing that all of my current and future prospects want to learn about all the time. Not just when they’re ready to buy my product.” The second method is the “shortcut”. This is when people can use your product or this feature with zero steps added. An example is just a recommendation that happens on Amazon after you buy a book. They recommend three other books if you buy them all that it four times increases revenue right away.

Here’s SC.

SC: Most people who think about growth strategy, they think about things like a/b testing or growth hacking or federal optimization, which I’m not going to get into that because you probably have a lot of other people who cover this but the essence of it is basically set up your goal metric put everything leading to that metric into a funnel and then optimize the conversion of that funnel.  

In a sense that’s like the 30-second version of all these methodologies. And these methodologies as you know, people who listen to this know very well are actually quite hard to implement and they’re successfully implemented maybe in like 20% of companies out there.

So if you do that, you’re already sort of in the top 20% but the problem you’re noticing when you do that and you’re in that top 20% is that very quickly you actually hit diminishing returns.

And so when you have you know, this goal metric funnel optimization the kind of optimization you get maybe it’s what 20% – 30% if you really push it you can even get 50% which in most cases if you think of oh the kind of optimization, right, that’s really optimized.

But when you’re working for, you know, a growth organization or you’re looking to generate hyper-growth that’s actually very small, what do you want when you’re talking hyper-growth you want 3x you want 5x or 10x?

And so the way that I think about this and the strategies that I apply to get their right to get to that really 3x, 5x or 10x are what I call thinking outside the funnel. And thinking outside the funnel is basically saying: Hey, what if there was no funnel, right? It’s like we’re in The Matrix and there’s no Matrix, right? What if there is no funnel?

So what is the state where there is no funnel and you have to think about it? If you picture for yourself a funnel, no funnel basically means my funnel is infinitely wide, right? So everybody is reached and it’s infinitely flat.

So everybody is reached instantly like there’s no, you know steps in the funnel, there’s no segmentation to reduce who you’re talking to. It’s like “I’m reaching everybody instantly the old of and use my product” and it may sound like wishful thinking but you can get there a lot faster and a lot easier than you think and there are two ways you can do that:

  • One is you use a “hook”. “Hook” is basically saying what is the one thing that everybody is going to want to learn about or hear about that’s related to my product. So let me give you an example – the real estate industry.  

If you’re looking for a place to buy as a homeowner. First of all, you do that once every five years. So it’s not a very frequent use case. It’s not a very high-velocity use case. Second, you know you go through the funnel very slowly and you know, you may drop out of the funnel if you’re in a crisis like we’re at today you may you know, it refinance your house instead of buying a new house, whatever.

So it’s not a very high-velocity business.

However, if I ask you, hey, do you want to know the value of the house you live in today? Probably a lot more people are going to be interested whether you’re on the market or not to buy a house and then if I ask you hey, do you want to know the value of your boss’s house or your ex-girlfriend or ex-boyfriend house. You’ll be like hell yes, and I want to know that it’s going down because I hate that fucker and whatever right and then you’ll not only are going to be interested to look at all these different house prices all over the country or all over your neighborhood. But you’re going to be looking at it like over multiple days and then you’re going to like start putting together a spreadsheet and say like hey is the real estate market going up or down is there some may be Arbitrage Opportunity in that particular neighborhood and your kind of you know, go to OCD on this data.

Well, like when you think about it from under the hood as a growth marketer or a product manager what you’ve just done is you’ve created a hook that basically appeals to everybody on this planet virtually.

All right, everybody can then go and check out the value of the house they live in the value of the house, their boss lives in and so on and so forth and do that all the time and every day so when it comes to time that they’re actually going to be on the market to buy a house, they’re going to go to your service, right?  

So that example is Zillow with the Zestimate write it a slightly inflated value of a house that creates a hook that is relevant to everybody whether they’re a home owner or not. Now how this applies in today’s environment.

Well everybody, literally everybody on the planet is touched by the pandemic that’s going on with the coronavirus. Right? So think of ways that you can link what’s happening in people’s lives today, right? It starts to feel like it’s Groundhog Day every day, right? They are going to need some information.

They’re going to need some novelty. There’s they’re going to need a way to keep entertain and healthy and saying like, how can you leverage that to create something that’s going to appeal to everybody when I use that, you know in the past I’ve experienced 5 to 10 x growth I think in an environment like today because everybody is so focused on the Coronavirus and the crisis and soon we’ll be moving into how do we get out of it? Like what is life going to be after Corona? Right? So you have plenty of different hooks that you’re going to be able to use over the next year. So that’s the first thing the first “Way To Think Outside The Funnel”  

  • The second way to think outside the funnel is to make your funnel completely flat. So your everybody uses your product and instantly like they don’t go through steps and re-engagement and stuff like that. 

And again, you know, it’s not something that you have to reinvent. Let me give you an example. When you’re on Amazon. If you go to Amazon and you tried to buy my book, I wrote a book on “how to build great products” you go as somebody you type like “oh here’s the book by SC” you buy it. Thank you for that. But immediately after you’ll see Amazon recommending three or four other books for you.

And the reason they do that they say like other books you may like right? So it’s saving you so much time it saving you the time to say like hey, it has SC written another book or is there another book on the topic of how to you build great products or our product managers and growth marketers reading other books than SC’s books. You can do all these searches or you could just buy these additional three books, except that if you look under the hood as a growth marketer or a product manager.   

What you’ve done is you’ve basically you quadrupled your revenue. Because instead of buying just one book, if you’re like me and you’re a bookworm, you bought 4 books and you just had to go through one more click or you maybe you don’t even go through one more click.  

So when it when we’ve used that in the past for my various products we’ve also been able to triple revenue. And how this applies to today’s environment with the coronavirus?  

Well, think about it. Think about how you are every morning or throughout the day or in the evening. Right? Most of us have such a hard time concentrating. We’re constantly pulled into the news and our families and you know staying motivated when we work from home. So as a growth marketer, if you don’t think about implementing these shortcuts you’re going to see a dwindling in your conversion and your demand so you have to think at all about creative ways to keep people engaged just long enough that they give you more revenue than they normally would right.

So these shortcuts would actually be very helpful for you in today’s environment.

AO: This has been amazing. I got a quick question on the first strategy. Can we name these: 

SC:  “the hook” and “the shortcut”.  

AO:  When we say “hook”, I know it’s not the exact same meaning is that but what we’re calling it “the hook piece” which you use with the Zillow estimate example. That also is when content marketing solving a similar job right in the way you said it. 

SC: Absolutely. Content marketing is another hook. You’re absolutely correct. To be able to write pieces and it’s even more actually such a great example, right because different people react to different types of content differently, right? So some people love podcasts and some people love to read and some people love watching videos and some people love to be on social media, right?

So when you think about it “hook” strategy that’s content-based you want to think about like all the different media because otherwise, you won’t be able to really fully capture your audience.

AO: I love it. Can you help us with the conversion? How you track conversions from the like the Zestimate to the actual product? Because I’m assuming that the hook you’re suggesting is not a profitable thing. We’re using it as a marketing tactic to help us get down the funnel to the next funnel.

SC: Yes. Oh, absolutely.

So if I think of a hook strategy that’s similar to the Zillow’s Zestimate, right? Frankly, if a real estate industry is able to come up with something like this, and it’s been such a slow conservative boring business. Anywhere, you can come up with a kind of a cool score.

And so the way you’re going to track conversion is this is really like a very top of funnel conversion. So you’re going to look at unique visitors as your top metric there.

AO: I love it. I guess it’s good to just keep in mind as we’re it. Sounds like we could do multiple strategies. Like you said in this like we could be testing how does content marketing convert once we have them, you know using us for a year and that as opposed to this free tool. I interviewed Neil Patel a couple of weeks ago and he said that your Uber Suggest which is their free tool. He said that has a higher engagement rate than any of the articles that they’ve ever written because that that free tool is getting them using and then they’re converting really highly of that.

So I’m I just I was just wondering if there’s any more that we could like how we can best judge the conversions from to this free thing to our actual product and it seems like an easy to forget that.

SC: Yeah, that’s a really good point. And in fact, you know, the unique visitor is sort of the very basic but actually one of the other metrics, especially because these content tools, are so addictive is the number of visitors over the course of one week. Like if you know this metric the L6 over L 7 L7 over 7 L5 / L 7. So what this is is your L.

Let’s say L6 over L7. It’s basically the number of people who visit your site six out of seven days.

And or L5 out of L7, like a number of people who visit your site five out of every seven days right on a rolling basis.

And so if you start thinking about your content strategy or you hooks like these scores and search as like, how do I drive engagement? Then you’ll probably be going to want to look at these metrics like how many people because of my awesome content or my awesome metric come to my side like seven days out of seven six days out of seven five out of seven.

And can I get the L 5 out of 7 to become L 6 out of 7? If you just send them, say, a push notification on that 6th day saying “hey, here’s something new for you.” Maybe they’re going to convert and become L6 out of our seven. So in your cohort analysis, you’re sort of driving your engagement this way.

AO: I love it. Now can we go into the second thing you suggested with the Amazon example? It sounds like you’re basically putting in a funnel within the funnel so you could potentially mess up the original one that you are doing If it’s slow down the purchase of just one book, is there anything that you can tell us about how you picked the second book and how to look at the right part of that funnel to insert this growth strategy?

SC: Yes, and the key shift here is what’s the metric you put at the bottom of the funnel. Because in fact like what you’re thinking about when you’re saying like “hey, I’m buying three or four books on Amazon” and it messes the funnel. That’s because you’re looking at what’s at the bottom of the funnel as I’m buying wine book, but really like what I’m doing is I’m quadrupling my revenue at the bottom of the funnel.

And so if you start looking at your, you know, average transaction size or bottom of the funnel in terms of dollars as opposed to transaction all of a sudden you start thinking like, oh, wait a minute, how do I increase the average transaction amount or how do I increase the average transaction for people who buy more than once a month so you can cut and slice and dice it however you want but moving from your dollars to your number of transaction is probably going to be what makes the difference there.

AO: Awesome SC. Last question.

Are there any roadblocks that you could share with people who are trying to implement one of these strategies? May be engaging with executives, pitching it. Any other roadblocks that you found? 

SC: You know, the main roadblock is how do you get the first test out? Because once you get the first test out and you show your executive or your engineering team that hey on that little tests that are in turn did because you know, he had time or he didn’t you know, obey orders or what have you we got 3x and people are going to be all over you and so really it’s like how do you get that little thing out there that first experiment and use that as a snowball effect.

AO: I love it. I mean it makes so much sense we but it’s just so easy to not actually do the right way of testing it and how fast can we test?

That’s our biggest limiter. 

SC: Yeah, absolutely and what are the right questions to ask in the test, right? Because a lot of people will think inside the funnel. Oh, how do I increase the conversion at that stage?

I’m going to make this button read or I’m going to have two steps instead of three or things like that. But what you want is you want to say? No. No, let’s think outside the funnel guys. Let’s really think it through. What is something that could make our product relevant to everybody and if you go ahead and this way they’re going to be like don’t listen to them, they are a little cuckoo.  But if you have just one small experience that’s based on you know, that Zillow example or that Amazon example, and you should ROI or the 3x of the 5x then all of a sudden everybody’s going to have a mindset change and then you won’t be the only one coming up with these ideas. They will come from everywhere in your organization.

AO: Another great episode The One grow shows the official podcast of growth marketing conference to learn more about upcoming events visit https://growthmarketingconf.com And subscribe to the newsletter. If you enjoy this episode, let us know. We’d really appreciate it if you give us a 5- star rating super easy. Just click the last star on iTunes and also share this episode on social media after all you want your network to know you’re the person they can always turn to for the best growth and marketing content, don’t you?

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